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  • #16
    They are one and the same. What I was trying to say was that I wonder how many more pages
    are there for wood carving tools with _all_ the numbers and the letter code explanations .

    The 2-page chart in my English wood carving text book (Wheeler & Hayward) only goes to #46 curved V sweep.
    But it does show the 6 mm, 11 mm, and 13 mm macaroni, fluteroni and backeroni sweeps.
    The authors make no mention at all of the source (LPB/Sheffield) other than to say:

    "This chart has been prepared from information supplied by several manufacturers."


    • #17
      This was originally a guide for British tool companies. Pfiel have their own numbering system, some are the same some aren’t.
      Also it doesn’t show things like the 2 1/2 sweep gouges which are fairly new.
      From what I have read, admittedly only from one source, some companies make sweeps that are slightly different. I have also noticed that some of my tools don’t match it exactly.


      • #18
        There is a guide on this page.


        • #19
          It is curious that the Sheffield List makes no mention of fishtail gouges. The one I have from Herring Brothers is stamped with a "4" (perhaps the sweep) and is 7mm wide. Likewise, the Pfeil catalog I picked up from Hugglers in Brienz, Switzerland in 2001 makes no mention of #4, #6, or #10 gouges - though the first two sweeps are available now.


          • #20
            Ashley Iles (UK) claims to be the only bladesmith that still makes every kind of gouge that there is shown as a section in the London Pattern Book.
            You will find the usual LPB chart in their website, looks exactly like the chart in Wheeler & Hayward (good little book).

            In the LPB, #1 is a square ended stop chisel and #2 is a skew.

            In Pfeil-speak, #1 is still a stop chisel while 1S is a skew. The result is that a Pfeil 2/30 has a visible sweep to the edge.
            So the Pfeil numbering system, at least up to the V tools, is a difference of -1 in their numbering system.

            I have no Auriou or Stubai or Narex gouges so can't say what they follow.
            I'm quite certain that they don't make everything and for good reason = you don't need it.

            All that matters is to recall what sorts of marks the gouges leave in your wood.


            • #21
              The London-pattern/Schaffield & "Swiss Made" Pfeil patterns are different, to see the difference you would need to get both sets of patterns. The "Swiss" Don't have the #2 that the "London" have. Their number two is the same as "London's" #3 "Swiss" call the "London'S" #1 & #2 just #1.

              The best thing is to get the two different charts.

              Confused yet,
              . . .JoeB


              • #22
                The Pfeil #2 is a very gently curved sweep. I use a 2/30.
                The Pfeil 1S is a skew. I use a 1S/25e.
                Since we all know what a skew looks like, I vote for calling them skews.

                I can match the Pfeil #2 sweep to the LPB #3 section in my textbook.


                • #23
                  Chris Pye ...Tools Materials and Equipment book. In the book, it is stated. On page 15..... How useful is the Sheffield List?
                  Well, not as useful as it really could be. Although many firms use it or something similar, there is a certain amount of inaccuracy in the making of the tools: a no. 5 in real life, for example, may correspond to a no. 6 in the catalog, or even a no. 5 1/2. Then again, an firm (such as Briston Design ) may use the lettering system instead, as did early editions of the Sheffield LIst itself: another (Pfeil, for example) may miss out some numbers altogether, and use others in a non-standard way.


                  • #24
                    Historians strive to read primary references. Better than subsequent observations. I want to see the original, to see that it exists.

                    Usefulness of the LPB? None whatsoever if the carvings are sanded. Nobody has a clue which gouge sweeps were used.
                    Do we notice fine inaccuracies in sweeps which are supposed to be the same?

                    Textured surfaces? Not hard to see a #3 or a #5 or a #7.
                    In this day and time, the LPB or something very much like it, is used by major manufacturers, nice for comparative purposes.

                    Fix up a crooked knife from a farrier's hoof trimming knife. I will get every sweep from #1 - #9 in each blade and a scorp.


                    • #25
                      For people like us....that have been using chisels a long time ....fine inaccuracies in a sweep rather meaningless. We all have the favorites we use and we use them for all kinds of cuts. For the like this can be a nightmare....LOL . But this is a wonderful discussion of the issues of gouges and chisels.....first thing you have to learn is how to use them and sharpen them and keep them sharp.... if you are beginning. I think he asked what is flat shallow gouge", "shallow gouge","U gouge","deep gouge".
                      I can't find any supplier using those terms?
                      I believe he wants to buy a few tools from this recommendation. For which I do not have an answer.


                      • #26
                        I can't understand why a respectable author and carver would find it useful to invent new terms for old tools.

                        But, the OP needs to pick out a carving style that they admire and want to experience.
                        The tool sets are different. Like carpenter/plumber/electrician.
                        Then we can nominate useful sweeps for the work.


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Robson Valley View Post
                          I can't understand why a respectable author and carver would find it useful to invent new terms for old tools.

                          But, the OP needs to pick out a carving style that they admire and want to experience.
                          The tool sets are different. Like carpenter/plumber/electrician.
                          Then we can nominate useful sweeps for the work.
                          agree.....with that one, .... it all depends on what you are carving plus who are....and what your patience level is....and how far you are willing to go with a project and also what kind of wood are you carving. My tools change often....with what I am doing. I do believe that a carver needs to get a few good carving knifes learn a few basics with them....and slowly go from there. I do not believe in getting sets of chisels why because you may not like doing chisel work.... and the good ones are costly. One thing about gouges and chisels do not get big ones....unless you are going to be making statues or large works....not for an beginner carver although.... and have lots of experience using small sweep ones. Gouges are a new ball game need the tool. you need to sharpen them, and you need to strop them....all this cost. So tell us what are you carving....what wood are you using,... hopeful linden or basswood are easiest to learn on. and what style would you like to learn first. For example, I bought a whole set of chip knifes, and found out I hate chip carving.....although the set is good and do use them on was not a good investment on my part.


                          • #28
                            I'm still gnawing away at 2 story poles (64" x 5 x 5) in western red cedar. I'm at the stage where I could decide what edges I needed and didn't have.
                            "About a #2 Pfeil and about a #7 Pfeil and 12mm (1/2" for the metrically challenged) would do." And is has.

                            Chip carving? I admire that and I will never rise to the skill level to do it.
                            I have a Moor large chip carving knife that I use for formline carving!


                            • #29
                              I found the answer! Mike Shipley makes his own gouges. In fact looking at the site I like a few of them.....might consider buying a few. I have two of his knives....... Anyway here is the link.
                              Last edited by Dileon; 03-12-2018, 06:37 PM.