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  • Pfeil Sweep Gouges Question:

    Can anyone tell me the arc angles used by Pfeil to make their sweeps which are numbered 2 - 9?
    Pfeil has not responded to a request for this information so I hope someone can help.

  • #2
    I don’t know, and I’m assuming you know there are charts that show the curves of gouge profiles.

    I am curious though, why is this important to you?
    Ed
    https://www.etsy.com/shop/HiddenInWood
    Local club
    https://www.facebook.com/CentralNebraskaWoodCarvers

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    • #3
      Hello Ed, Several reasons: 1. calculate the depth of any given sweep, 2. make a very accurate strop that does not alter the sweep, 3. determine the half circle diameter of a gouge, 4. calculate the Fibonacci sequence for a given size ..... etc.

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      • #4
        The arc angle of a Pfeil #9 gouge is 180 degrees, that is, half a circle. A #8 is 120 degrees - 1/3 a circle. A #7 is 90 degrees - 1/4 a circle. A #5 is 72 degrees - 1/5 a circle. Pfeil did not make #6 or #4 gouges until recently, so I don't know what the arc segments are. I'm not sure about #3's and #2's. Unlike the British standard the #2's are curved, not skews.
        The Pfeil #3's and #2's seem to break the logical sequence described here. They seem to have 20 or 30 arc segments.

        Note: The radius of the given circle varies with the width of the gouge.
        Last edited by pallin; 09-02-2021, 05:25 PM.

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        • #5
          Pallin....Thank You!!
          This is a good start. I have spent hours trying to find these angles surfing and reading without any luck. Please let me know where you found these answers so I may extend my search for the missing arc angles.

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          • #6
            I found these arc segments by actually pressing the cutting edges into wood to complete the circle - then divided 360 by the number of segments to get the arc angle.
            Last edited by pallin; 09-02-2021, 05:29 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by johnvansyckel View Post
              Hello Ed, Several reasons: 1. calculate the depth of any given sweep, 2. make a very accurate strop that does not alter the sweep, 3. determine the half circle diameter of a gouge, 4. calculate the Fibonacci sequence for a given size ..... etc.
              Wow. I have been carving for some time and never needed any of that information. Perhaps it will help you in some of your decisions, but I have always just looked at the charts showing the sweeps and sizes. I own 30 -40 full size tools and I just select them by picking the one closest to what I am trying to do. You can't bury the gouge the full depth when cutting anyway, with much success. I make do with what I own, rather than trying purchase an exact size or shape. I can usually achieve the same results with what I already own. As far as strops, I use a power strop that has a leather covered wheel and a cloth buffing wheel. I strop the outside of knives, gouges, and v-tools of all sizes on the leather wheel (which is flat and about an inch wide) and then buff the inside edge of gouges on the cloth wheel. You will always be changing the sweep slightly however you sharpen or strop and it will not affect your carving as long it is sharp. Carving is not as precise as we would sometimes like it to be. Fishtail gouges are great for certain uses, but the more you sharpen them, the narrower they will get, eventually. I use some micro gouges for making circles for smaller carvings, I just use a compass to draw anything over 2mm and carve around it with knives or V-tools. And I can barely pronounce Fibonacci, much less calculate it! I'm not trying to say that your research is not valuable to you, but don't be mislead that you have to own the correct size and shape of tools to carve. It may depend on what you are trying to carve, but I find that there is more art involved than science. I am guessing that you are probably trying to carve some type of furniture decoration, based on what you have said? Buy a few tools and carve a few in basswood, before you try carving multiple decorations. Have fun with it! It is easy to carve just one thing, but it gets more difficult to try and duplicate that one thing and have them match.
              'If it wasn't for caffeine, I wouldn't have any personality at all!"

              http://mikepounders.weebly.com/
              https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mike-...61450667252958
              http://centralarkansaswoodcarvers.blogspot.com/

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              • #8
                The depth of a #9 - 3mm is not the same as #9 - 20mm. Since it is a half circle, the first is 1.5mm deep, the other is 10mm. So a strop matched to every profile would require about 80 "ridges". That's just the #2 to #9 straight gouges. You'd have to do something different for the long bent, spoon bent, Staehli, macaroni, fluteroni, V-tools, etc.
                Last edited by pallin; 09-02-2021, 05:18 PM.

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                • #9
                  Pallin and Ed,
                  Thank you both for your insight and advice. And thank you being there to help those of us that are lost.
                  I'll take your information and advice and move forward.

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                  • #10
                    Mike, great advise ..... Thanks!

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                    • #11
                      The Fibonacci sequence and golden ratio are concerned with design, not execution; I don't understand why the sweeps of gouges would have a relevance in their regard, in the actual carving...I do as Mike said, I just select from the gouges I have that are closest to the the task at hand. Of course, there are many things I don't understand.
                      Arthur

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                      • #12
                        The place to start would be in the history of the gouge pages in the original London Pattern Book.
                        I predict it goes back to medieval times. Journey-men doing the elaborate wood and stone carvings for churches.
                        Brian T

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                        • #13
                          The rationale behind this discussion is "how do you strop the inside of gouges?" You cannot do it on a flat leather strop or cardboard on the flat surface. One approach is to make flexible strops. Brian T uses tubes, dowels, and other cylinders to hold stropping compound - even a tennis ball for stropping a curved adze. I glued leather to a dowel years ago, mostly to strop crooked knives, but I've also applied it to gouges. It doesn't take many swipes on the inner edge, so I tend to use a small Arkansas slip stone. It is rounded on one side and pointed on the other. One or two swipes is sufficient, unless you are of the school that requires a "burr or wire edge" to be removed in order to be truly sharp.
                          Last edited by pallin; 09-03-2021, 12:16 PM. Reason: added to last sentence

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                          • #14
                            Arthur,
                            Thanks for the response.
                            The Fibonacci curve is just one of several needs. Regarding the "relevance" consider the curve in mm below: the 2 largest segments (21x21 & 13x13) could be most easily done with sweeps constructed from 90 deg angles that are 30mm and 18mm.
                            Pallin indicated that the Pfiel #7 was constructed using a 90º Arc Angle so the minimum number of sweeps to create a very close approximation of these curves have been solved. I assume that you and Mike have a sufficient number of sweeps to select from to do the task at hand, but I currently only own 4 small sweeps and need to expand my collection. But, as I consider the 21x21 area and the #7-30mm sweep, it may be more beneficial (multi-use and cost wise) to purchase a sweep with a 45º angle and a length of 16mm and make 2 cuts.The problem now becomes .... what sweep # is 45º arc angle? {Pallin did not identify a sweep # for a 45º.} Another possibility would be 3 cuts using a 30º arc angle.
                            OBTW. The cost of a #7-30mm is $72.99 where the #6-16 is only $51.99 and a #5-16 is only $50.99 but I don't know if either are constructed with a 45º Arc Angle.

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                            • #15
                              Thanks Brian.... where can I purchase the original London Pattern Book?

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