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Reworking an Old Bent V-tool

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  • Reworking an Old Bent V-tool

    A month ago I was given an old tool roll that included some very old gouges. One was this Marples long bent V-tool. It was badly pitted and rusty. As I cleaned it up and started reworking the cutting edge, I discovered how hard it is to maintain the bevels. The outside bottom of the V is sloped back at least twice the width of the bevels. The included angle is 70 degrees, which would be profile 39 on the London Pattern Book, but it looks like it's marked "40."


  • #2
    Re: Reworking an Old Bent V-tool

    I see #39 as a straight, #40 as a bent, #43 as a front bent.
    The measurement in my chart shows 90 degrees, no forms at 70.
    I think that I'd try to screw up my courage, joint the thing and start over.
    Brian T

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    • #3
      Re: Reworking an Old Bent V-tool

      I was going by a posting you had made in September:

      09-09-2013, 09:46 AM
      Robson Valley
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      Default Re: help on sharpening v tool

      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      While the angle between the wings will change, the bevels themselves will function best at 20 degrees.
      So far, here's what I've found:
      #12 = 60 degrees (Wheeler & Hayward, compilation from several, un-named mfgrs)
      #13 = 90
      #14 = 55
      #15 = 45
      #16 = 35
      Out of the London Pattern Book:
      #39 = 70
      #41 = 40
      #45 = 90


      What you say makes sense, but this V-tool is definitely more than 60, less than 90.

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      • #4
        Re: Reworking an Old Bent V-tool

        Dang. Forgot to sift through the folded charts that I have jammed in the book.
        One chart, supposedly the LPB, shows #45 & #46 as 90 degrees.
        Fuzzy labelling, perhaps.
        Worst case, make a mark in wood and extend the lines. Measure that figure with a protractor.
        Then the names keep changing: 'straight' and 'long bent' I can grasp. But are 'short bent' and 'front bent' the same? Then, I've seen 'tracery bent' withthe shank bent right behind the bevel! No idea of numbers for those. I'd guess they would climb from the straight sweep/forms.
        Brian T

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        • #5
          Re: Reworking an Old Bent V-tool

          Google up Henry Taylor carving tools and they show probably the most complete listings of the "London Pattern" or "Sheffield List" anywhere. A #39 is 60 degrees and the others listed are 45 and 90.

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          • #6
            Re: Reworking an Old Bent V-tool

            This is interesting. In my copy of the LPB, #39 is 70 degrees. Is HT more correct or less?
            Brian T

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            • #7
              Re: Reworking an Old Bent V-tool

              In Woodcarving tools by Chris Pye it gives 60degrees for #39, 40 and 43. 45degrees for #41, 42 and44. 90degrees for #45 and 46. The sales ads from Traditional Woodworker say the same.
              For 70degrees you could get one from Flex Cut or possibly one of the German companies. Some of them show 75 degrees but I believe one of them offers a 70.

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              • #8
                Re: Reworking an Old Bent V-tool

                Just for the record, this Marples long bent V-tool is exactly 72 degrees.

                For some reason it appears that tool designers chose equal divisions of a circle. If you divide 360 deg. by 5 you get 72 deg.

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                • #9
                  Re: Reworking an Old Bent V-tool

                  How interesting.
                  pallin: I can't help but wonder if the math doesn't reflect or reveal the design in the carving(s) and that need would be addressed by specific tool angles. I have a little text which analyzes the geometry of old church windows. Must take a look. Turns out that most were designed centuries ago with little more than a compass and a straight-edge.
                  Brian T

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                  • #10
                    Re: Reworking an Old Bent V-tool

                    I tried to think of some carving situation that would dictate the angle of V-tools, but can't think of any. There isn't any logic to dividing circle either. Many gouges are arc segments of a circle: #8 is 1/3, #9 is 1/2. The process of forging a V-tool or gouge would not relate to segments of a circle. Just a curiosity lost in history I guess.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Reworking an Old Bent V-tool

                      Manufacturer specifications cannot always be trusted. Errors crept into documents from the earliest printed matter. When I was deeply involved in Model A Ford restoration, I found a diagram from the Ford Motor Company that showed a particular dimension: 51 inches from the ground to the top of the car - a 1931 Convertible Sedan. Wow! if that were true I'd have a low, sporty car. Unfortunately the dimension was from the frame to the top of the car.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Reworking an Old Bent V-tool

                        I can't get home for 3-4 days, to where the reference books are. Another motive may have been/maybe is lettering.

                        I confess that I have used my V-tool this week past. Its annual escape from the tool roll.

                        I wrote the "family cookbook", it's 116 pages of all the home-run recipes we use. Every couple of years, I edit the thing. Very few new recipes, mainly changing proportions.
                        Must have gone through it, page by page, 5X, using 2 source versions for edits.
                        Got it printed today. You say: "errors?" I cannot believe the gross upscrews with layout, right up to chapter headings!
                        Brian T

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                        • #13
                          I used to run a group that was both quality, inspection, and specs.... Years ago. Before Web. Any case, we discovered tired eyes or mind issue when reviewing and checking specs before customers handle them. Spec on multi-million product means business. The mind tends to gloss over what it is 'used' to. Typo's and mistakes are ignored. Takes a fresh never saw it before type to catch some stuff. Customers are not wanted in that position! We were in Pure Engineering, some of us in software some in Hardware and some in both. Reported to a Director. Martin

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by pallin View Post
                            The outside bottom of the V is sloped back at least twice the width of the bevels. The included angle is 70 degrees, which would be profile 39 on the London Pattern Book, but it looks like it's marked "40."

                            [ATTACH]92448[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]92449[/ATTACH]
                            Can you attach a photo of what you mean. Are you talking the actual angle of the "v" opening or are you talking about the wings being swept forward or back from the bottom of the "v". There are reasons why you'd make the tool one way or the other. A good compromise is straight.

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                            • #15
                              Ancient thread about a fossil. Only hope that it got jointed and reworked. My last p.ost was 2014.
                              Brian T

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